Reconvened ICU AGM - Saturday, November 8th 2008 City West

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Seanie
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Reconvened ICU AGM - Saturday, November 8th 2008 City West

Post by Seanie » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:02 pm

Funnily enough I've been given a recording of the Reconvened ICU AGM back in November 8th 2008. As this is all some what topical I'm uploading shortened version of the file, the original was over one and a half hours long, and this is shortened to cover all the financial matters discussed.
Podcast
Download the Mp3 - 25 Minutes Long 35mb

The AGM is Chaired by the ICU Chairman, Eamon Devoy.
It opens with the the ICU CEO Michael Scanlon addressing previous queries and errors at the previous part of the AGM a month earlier.
Queries from the first part of the AGM wrote:1. That the figures in the audited accounts didn't add up. Namely the PRSI calculations and the wages paid.
2. The break down of headings for Page 8 of the Audited Accounts.
3. The discrepancies in the number of full time staff between 2007 and 2008.
Correction to Draft 2007 Audited Accounts.pdf
Auditors Letter and Corrections to Draft 2007 Audited Accounts
(432.27 KiB) Downloaded 151 times
Delegates_Reconvened AGM_November 8th 2008.pdf
(3.02 MiB) Downloaded 143 times
2006 Audited Accounts.pdf
2006 Audited Accounts
(40.44 KiB) Downloaded 141 times
ICU Audited Accounts 2007 - With Errors as adopted by AGM.pdf
ICU Audited Accounts 2007 - With Errors as adopted by AGM
(207.44 KiB) Downloaded 152 times
ICU Audited Accounts 2007 - Final (3-11-08).pdf
ICU Audited Accounts 2007 - Final (3-11-08)
(4.27 MiB) Downloaded 149 times
Outcome of Items Received remaining after 2008 ICU AGM.pdf
Outcome of Items Received remaining after 2008 ICU AGM
(136.08 KiB) Downloaded 159 times
Feel free to explain the explanations to me in this thread. Neither I nor a chartered senior account can figure out the explanation, or how the 'clerical error' was made. Maybe that letter from 2007 would clear it all up, but we never did get to see that letter. As for the part with questions and statements on 'related party transactions', sure we'll see how that turns out.

seanmc
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Re: Reconvened ICU AGM - Saturday, November 8th 2008 City W

Post by seanmc » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:01 pm

This is getting more like wikileaks everyday.
BTW, Seanie, do you know if this was recorded with the knowledge of people at the meeting?

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Seanie
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Re: Reconvened ICU AGM - Saturday, November 8th 2008 City W

Post by Seanie » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:35 pm

seanmc wrote:BTW, Seanie, do you know if this was recorded with the knowledge of people at the meeting?
It was recorded covertly. The chairman even specifically asked if anyone was intending on recording the meeting to make themselves known beforehand. No one made themselves known. But I'm in no doubt as to the legality of such a recording or (given the seriousness or the subject matter and attitude of the executive board to these issues) the soundness of ethics behind making a covert recording. It was an open meeting, the content of which should be in the public domain anyway.

I think all future ICU AGM's should be video streamed live to the internet and archived for all to see.

mikef
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Re: Reconvened ICU AGM - Saturday, November 8th 2008 City W

Post by mikef » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:48 pm

God Seanie

That recording is genuinely hard to stomach in parts, I can't imagine how you must have felt at the time. Do you know or can you name the people or the clubs they represent that were telling you to basically shut up? I wonder how they feel now?

cheers
Mikef

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Seanie
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Re: Reconvened ICU AGM - Saturday, November 8th 2008 City W

Post by Seanie » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:29 pm

mikef wrote:That recording is genuinely hard to stomach in parts, I can't imagine how you must have felt at the time. Do you know or can you name the people or the clubs they represent that were telling you to basically shut up? I wonder how they feel now?
I'd love to say that they feel pretty silly at what they said, but sure two of them, Declan Golding and Kevin Murphy,
signed the letter mentioned in the other thread!

I'm pretty sure, but I could be wrong, the voices are:
Declan Golding - The guy who wanted to go home.
Malcolm Banks -
Kevin Murphy -
Dermot Hudson -
All members of Salmon Leap Canoe Club.

Ken
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Re: Reconvened ICU AGM - Saturday, November 8th 2008 City W

Post by Ken » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:30 pm

To be honest I think that this is making a mountain out of a molehill. The accounts are presented in a manner normal for much larger entities than the Canoe Union. The disclosures are actually quite detailed. Likewise the mistakes that were made were relatively small. From the auditors perspective at least if they were to investigate every small suspected misstatement the additional cost of doing so would massively outweigh the benefit of having a slightly different number on the Financial Statements.

Clerical errors could be something like typing the wrong thing into a computer. It happens all the time.

Given that the other issue regarding the CEO's remuneration had the cooperation of both the CEO and a former president it's hard to see how any additional disclosures could have noticed this. It's very difficult to discover such things, particularly when they relate to salaries, tighter internal controls or a different audit approach may have made a difference, but it's impossible to know.

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Seanie
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Re: Reconvened ICU AGM - Saturday, November 8th 2008 City W

Post by Seanie » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:59 pm

Ken wrote:To be honest I think that this is making a mountain out of a molehill. The accounts are presented in a manner normal for much larger entities than the Canoe Union. The disclosures are actually quite detailed. Likewise the mistakes that were made were relatively small. From the auditors perspective at least if they were to investigate every small suspected misstatement the additional cost of doing so would massively outweigh the benefit of having a slightly different number on the Financial Statements.

Clerical errors could be something like typing the wrong thing into a computer. It happens all the time.

Given that the other issue regarding the CEO's remuneration had the cooperation of both the CEO and a former president it's hard to see how any additional disclosures could have noticed this. It's very difficult to discover such things, particularly when they relate to salaries, tighter internal controls or a different audit approach may have made a difference, but it's impossible to know.
Sorry Ken but we have to disagree on this. I showed the accounts to two independent chartered accountants. Their opinion was that the accounts weren't up to scratch. Sure they are presented in a manner normal for much larger entities than the Canoe Union, they look like other accounts, following the outline of proper accounts, but they lacked significant detail in areas, and were wholly incorrect in places. Look at the appendix they have supplied in recent years, its filled with junk numbers, meaningless tables of numbers that dont correspond with anything in the main accounts, adding no value only the appearance of completeness and detail. I'd be happy if the accounts were 5 pages shorter in future, but the have to be done correctly.


I'm not out to spot every typo in the accounts and bust peoples balls about it, there are plenty of simple errors in the accounts that are not worth bringing attention to. Yes the "mistakes" I raised were relatively small, about €9,000 out on the PRSI front. This of its self is minor, €9,000 when you are talking about accounts that cover nearly €1 Million surely seems to be nit picking, especially seeing as they corrected it, right?

Wrong. The question is how did they make the €9,000 error in the first place? If the accounts are truly audited this type of mistake is impossible to make. Impossible. A simple clerical error would be simple to explain but it would seem the only way to make this kind of an error is by balancing the books rather than auditing them. Thats why the explanation of how they made this error is so important, and the explanation just doesn't add up. The explanation is a word jumble. I'd love if someone could explain it to me.
Ken wrote: From the auditors perspective at least if they were to investigate every small suspected misstatement the additional cost of doing so would massively outweigh the benefit of having a slightly different number on the Financial Statements.
As for the costs involved with doing a detailed proper annual audit. For a company the size of the ICU, with the ICU's turn over, the ICU was already spending top dollar on the audit. For the year in question the fee was €9,115, which is massive, simply massive. There's no excuse.


If the accounts were done correctly the VHI Plan E insurance would be in a separate bracket to the ICU's general insurance. And a retirement package worth €30,000 for one person would be as plain as day. This entire debacle wouldn't have happened. But its clear that the ICU board trusted the CEO Mick Scanlon to oversee the audit, and they suffered as a result. Even the auditor deferred to Mick when asked about the discrepancies at the first part of the AGM.

I'm sure there's more to come out of this fiasco other than a persons employment contract, this is only chapter one and yes proper book keeping and transparency would have stopped that also.

PS. The accounts of the ICU used to be extremely well done prior to around 2000. I mean top class stuff, the auditor from back really did a good job.

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Re: Reconvened ICU AGM - Saturday, November 8th 2008 City W

Post by Adrians » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:04 am

Seanie,

Just thinking out loud here but would the accounting firm whom have preformed the audit but professinaly liable for any of the discrepancys missed / ignored?

Adrian

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Seanie
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Re: Reconvened ICU AGM - Saturday, November 8th 2008 City W

Post by Seanie » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:17 pm

Adrians wrote:Just thinking out loud here but would the accounting firm whom have preformed the audit but professinaly liable for any of the discrepancys missed / ignored?
I'm not sure, but accountants have insurance for when then the shit hist the fan..
Also if there was an official complaint, liability would be the least of their worries.
An investigation by one of these would represent a bigger problem:
  • Association of Chartered Certified Accountants (ACCA);
  • Institute of Certified Public Accountants in Ireland (ICPAI);
  • Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland (ICAI);
But yeah, the ICU might have a case to bring. Which would be nice, the ICU could use the cash.

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