I'm glad you replied, and I'm glad you posed the questions you did. Yet again, largely what you're saying is correct. But some of it is irrelevant for this thread, but I'll try to address it (hoping it doesn't take this off topic). And might I also say, some of what you are arguing against are clearly established best practices.
And also might I just say, yes accidents do happen, to everyone, at every level, at every skill level, no matter what the experience. But putting all of this down to chance and part of the sport is naive. There are different contributory factors in each case, yes some things just happen. But, if they happen over and over again in similar circumstances, they can or could be prevented, for the good of the sport and the safety of the people undertaking the sport. Thats what has brought kayaking to the level its at today.
But also do not underestimate the importance of being allowed to learn from mistakes.
But when people are acting as instructors/guides the students are the people that suffer the main consequence's. Trial and error isn't a valid strategy in a scenario where the person experimenting is responsible for another persons safety. The first time I'm guided down Grade 5 whitewater, I want to be guided by a guide that knows what they are doing and not some guy who is being thrown in at the deep end as an trainee instructor. Thats why people shadow guide, the get their experience gradually and under the helpful eye of someone senior. And internship if you will.
Where we have a Uni kayak club utopia, in which every club river trip was perfect and safety was set up at every bend and every rapid where someone could potentially get hurt was portaged. Are you doing future club lead kayakers a favour?? Or are you babysitting them to an extent that when something does go wrong for real and they are in charge because they've done loads of rivers, spent loads of time on the water under the club super safe environment and are really mature that they wont make the right call. All the money spent on safety qualifications will be wasted because everybody who has been kayaking for a while knows the value of learning and improving from past experiences in real live difficult situations.
I 100% agree. I guess its what your definition of what the deep-end is. But our views are converging. I think debriefing at the end of a trip is the best way to go about it, after I returned from Canada I tried to get this to be adapted in our club. The river trips went ahead, shit happened on the river, within a margin of safety. And we all had a chat at the end about what went well and what could be improved. Far from rapping people in cotton wool. But thats not what I'm taking issue with here and now. I'm getting at flaws with the overall organisation, I think this sort of things is down to individual instructors.
Having an over-bearing amount of older instructors on a river trip with little faith shown in younger members and clubs compulsorily portaging rapids with risk even though the club members have the skill levels to run the rapid with appropriate safety is totally counter-productive in my opinion, and will prolong the time it takes beginner river runners to become insightful river leaders by years. In effect long term the club will lose out in bringing river running to newer generations.
100% agree. I have learned a large part of growing leadership within clubs is knowing when to step down, so that others can step up. There is a period of uncertainty between those two periods, the only standard I would set for intervention is if things become unsafe. Then problem then becomes, how do you get back on track?
Can you see yourself doing river trips for another 10 years Seanie, because in reference to nuigkc I now know as of now our club has not produced a Grade 3 river leader in the last 3 years at least despite having huge intakes of members and with new measures being brought in I dont see it happening any time soon.
Ah, finally back on track
Actually in NUIG's case, after only 3 years yourself and Barry are no longer instructors, but I would have previously counted you both as level 3+ instructors. This shows how fickle a club environment can be. Sometimes a year produces lots of instructors, others not so much and other things happen, people leave, people fail college etc. etc. Its not uniform. But clubs are run as if the same resources are there year after year. The same expectations are there. On average how long does it take to train someone as a grade three instructor? 3 years? 4 years? 5 years?
Should river running just die as a discipline in University clubs? I dont think people want to see that happening. Whitewater has its dangers, everybody knows it. But why stop there... so does climbing, sailing and surfing.
I don't think so either. But there is the very real fact, that college lasts four years. Given that most people start kayaking properly when they enter college, four years is not enough time to sufficiently train people up to being an instructor on anything above grade 3+. And given that clubs have good and bad years, in bad years even having sufficient instructors for grade 3 is a push.
There are similarities with climbing, sailing and surfing. Often committee members or instructors are in a position of responsibility, they have to say no to their and even even their seniors in the club. A lot of people lack this maturity at 19 or 20 years of age, and often go down the route that avoids conflict. Kayaking has a lot of ego built into it, some kayakers really don't like being told they cant do something. Being the one to say no can be daunting. And sometimes conflict is avoided out of lack of experience and ignorance. Either way, just like instructors on the water, its seldom that the committee are the people that suffer the main consequence's. Trial and error isn't a valid strategy in scenario where the person experimenting is responsible for another persons safety. This puts clubs in a position where they can neither take pre-emptive or corrective actions and sometimes are complicit in unsafe behaviour.
This is why I believe that grade 3+ is beyond a club run by a student committee. All clubs and Universities have a duty of care, this can not be diluted with 'its part of the sport', especially when the facts are know. When it comes to the safety of people in your care 'good enough' isn't acceptable. When it comes to individuals paddling for themselves, you're over 18, I couldn't give a shit.