Regulation of Kayaking and Canoeing in Ireland

Irish Kayaking and Canoeing discussion forum.

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bryanrichardson
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:02 pm

Re: Regulation of Kayaking and Canoeing in Ireland

Post by bryanrichardson » Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:14 am

It states clearly that its to regulate commercial operators, not clubs or persons going out without a guide or instructor. Its board will have NGB representatives to oversee it. Its not trying to replace NGB's but to insist anyone offering to bring people out for money follow NGB guidelines.
Does this give n.g.b's the power to dictate regulations/guidelines in order to push out smaller operators?

And how will the bill be policed by the i.c.u?

Will there be a distinction between club and commericial instructors?

Will this not put more financial pressure on the already strained finances of the i.c.u?

tiernan
Posts: 139
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Re: Regulation of Kayaking and Canoeing in Ireland

Post by tiernan » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:35 pm

You've quoted your own answers
bryanrichardson wrote:Does this give n.g.b's the power to dictate regulations/guidelines in order to push out smaller operators?
Its board will have NGB representatives to oversee it. Its not trying to replace NGB's but to insist anyone offering to bring people out for money follow NGB guidelines.
bryanrichardson wrote:Will there be a distinction between club and commericial instructors?
It states clearly that its to regulate commercial operators, not clubs or persons going out without a guide or instructor.
bryanrichardson wrote: And how will the bill be policed by the i.c.u?
Will this not put more financial pressure on the already strained finances of the i.c.u?
I'm sure that would be up to the ICU and other NGBs... perhaps they'll be allocated funding for it or band together to fund one office to do it for all them. It isnt as much an issue at the moment so much as getting it all passed into law.

bryanrichardson
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Re: Regulation of Kayaking and Canoeing in Ireland

Post by bryanrichardson » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:49 pm

No I have'nt,
sorry if i was'nt clear.

I'm talking about the I.C.U here.
Does this give n.g.b's the power to dictate regulations/guidelines in order to push out smaller operators?
If the bill is passed and commercial instructors have to adhere to I.c.u guidelines would it open the door for the i.c.u to tailor these guidelines as to favor themselves. not forgetting here they are a commercial body too.
Will there be a distinction between club and commericial instructors?
will the i.c.u make a distinction between commerical and club instructors if the bill is passed. do they at the momment?
I'm sure that would be up to the ICU and other NGBs... perhaps they'll be allocated funding for it or band together to fund one office to do it for all them. It isnt as much an issue at the moment so much as getting it all passed into law.
And where would this funding come from? Would it mean a massive jump in membership fees? Would club instructor and commercial instructors pay different membership fees?

This bill has been talked about for the last ten years. It still has'nt been passed into law. These things will be issues if it is passed, so I think talking about possible problems now is a good idea rather than be stuck with the thing being law and having a massive battle to amend it.

Adrians
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Re: Regulation of Kayaking and Canoeing in Ireland

Post by Adrians » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:04 pm

Seanie wrote:
Adrians wrote:Just to add to this, AFAS ( Centre Standards Board ) is the Association of Adventure Sports Centers which used to provide approval for Adventure centers. I'm not sure how active these lot still are or what part they might be able to play in regulating the industry.
Its dormant, the person I spoke to put a lot of time and effort into the bill and I don't think they fancy putting more time into overcoming the political impasse that exists today. But there may be more involved with that site that are up for giving it one more push.
So far as I can currenlty see AFAS allbe it dormant at the moment provides the best framework for any such self regulation. As to how its operation may be funded I'm not sure, but I know most operators and freelance instructors just don't have the the money available to pay so they can be "approved".

Another possible flaw is than any such self regulation or approval will be opt-in, and until there is some legal consequences to not opperating inside certain guidelines NGB or otherwise any such opt-in scheme would be a little bit toothless.


I had thought a bit more on how any such regulation may apply to proffessional and club instructors, I don't think its either possiblw or correct to draw a line between the two. Safety standards should be something we try ensure.

I can think of a hand full of clubs off the top of my head that operate semi commercial courses in the summer months to help finance themselves into the following year. Thats cool but apart from a very small number of these clubs non of them operate even close to NGB guide lines. They are also able to skirt around guide lines by getting folks to pay a sudo membership fee so techinally its a club operation not a comercial course.


Bryan what way does the P.A.D.I system work, would its layout be applicable to the canoe & kayak system here in Ireland?

I know myself and others have mentioned regulation a bunch of times but what are the actual outcomes of such regulation if any people would like to see?

Bryan posted there just as I was about to.
bryanrichardson wrote:
I'm talking about the I.C.U here.
Does this give n.g.b's the power to dictate regulations/guidelines in order to push out smaller operators?
If the bill is passed and commercial instructors have to adhere to I.c.u guidelines would it open the door for the i.c.u to tailor these guidelines as to favor themselves. not forgetting here they are a commercial body too.
Thats another biggie there! Is one comercial provider regardless if its the NGB the best person to regulate other comercial providers.

Adrian

bryanrichardson
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Re: Regulation of Kayaking and Canoeing in Ireland

Post by bryanrichardson » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:23 pm

http://www.padi.com/padi/en/footerlinks/whypadi.aspx

Is one comercial provider regardless if its the NGB the best person to regulate other comercial providers.
good point :shock:

roshaw_87
Posts: 55
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Location: Galway

Re: Regulation of Kayaking and Canoeing in Ireland

Post by roshaw_87 » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:18 pm

As i read it 4 of 12 board members would come from NGB's. The bill is titled adventure activities standards authority 2001. It’s to set up an authority to make mandatory safety standards for commercial operators. It has been passed into law already, just not put into action. Notice my link is to are national statute book. Clubs and schools are not commercial operators unless taking money from the public for instruction beyond cost ie for profit. The Icu would not be in charge of policing standards the authority itself would and if they changed their instructorships to suit their own profiting I don’t think it would go un noticed. The training centre is run for profit but the ICU is not and gets funding from the national sports council as a NGB. According to the Bill the authority would have 300,000 euro budget from the tax coffers to pay for its running. There are many questions written or raised in above comments that can be answered by reading it and the attached dail debates that Seanie added.
Adrians wrote:
roshaw_87 wrote: I'd like to see regulation so I only have to compete with other qualified instructors for work who have also spent thousands between trips, training and assessments, spent countless hours practicing and logging hours so that they can lead groups safely.
I know it more personal reason than the safety aspects for such regulation this is also one of the reasons I'd like to see some sort of regulation.

As some one who also operates as a sole trader working for myself I also have the extra expense of public liablity / indemnity insurance and paying associated VAT and revenue.

There need to be some sort of regulation for many differant reasons but how such things could be implamented or monitored I honestly haven't thought about it enough.

I'd like to hear more about how other countries work this.


A
It is far from personal thing! If a center can hire the cheapest worker who has no training over those who have qualifications than safety suffers and there are no incentives for workers to seek training and up skilling. Could you imagine if you didn’t need to be a lawyer to practice law or a doctor to do surgery? I am now a level three instructor now, but I have been employed on rivers before I got my level two instructor and have been the cheaper, less able instructor. Safety and the students learning suffered as a result. I am using my own experiences to point out a flaw in the way things are done now and have strong personal feelings about it but about my personal gain. If this bill was enacted those who are working now without the proper experience and qualification would go get them and I’d still have competition for the work, but whoever got the work would be doing it safely. Given that outdoor wages are lesser in Britain and they have a lot more qualified instructors in the BCU I imagine that cost cutting centers in Ireland would advertise there, but safety would still rise!
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roshaw_87
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Location: Galway

Re: Regulation of Kayaking and Canoeing in Ireland

Post by roshaw_87 » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:23 pm

No the Icu does not make a distinction between clubs and private operators as it only looks at Instructors who can work at both. Nor should this change if the Bill was enacted.
087 9862517/ [email protected]
Intelligence is what you use when you dont know what to do

Adrians
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Re: Regulation of Kayaking and Canoeing in Ireland

Post by Adrians » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:56 pm

I had to work at the weekend and never made it to the TDU AGM, was there any mention of this topic in the discussion part of the meeting.

I also contact Mick Scanlon last week when this topic was first raised to see what the ICU's offical stance on this was but I'm still awating a reply. Does anyone know what the offical ICU line is?

Adrian

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