The Low Brace Turn

Irish Kayaking and Canoeing discussion forum.

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AndrewR
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:00 pm

The Low Brace Turn

Post by AndrewR » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:21 pm

This is a question to all people who act in an instructor capacity in Irish kayaking.

Do you teach the low brace turn as a means of breaking into the flow? If you do, then why?

It is the opinion of all people I paddle with that its a very counter-productive thing to be teaching, yet some instructors must still be using it as I see it on Irish rivers all the time.

I can see why, Ive just read the Canoeing Ireland Level 3 and Level 4 syllabi and it is included, I intend on completing my hours and becoming a L.3 instructor in the near future, but ya I have no intention right now of teaching that. Unless there's a strong voice among CI instructors who disagree can the skills requirements be updated?

Micheal Mc Sweeney
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:00 am

Re: The Low Brace Turn

Post by Micheal Mc Sweeney » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:25 am

http://forum.iww.ie/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=102

Six pages of discussion on the low brace turn, from 2008.

AndrewR
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:00 pm

Re: The Low Brace Turn

Post by AndrewR » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:25 pm

Sweet thanks for that, it was before my time.

Everything has already been said there, Rob Coffey and other have it spot on. That was four years ago and we are still stuck with the same syllabus.

I'm curious as to what people think is the best avenue to get a proper dynamic paddling syllabus developed and implemented.

ruairi og
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:11 pm

Re: The Low Brace Turn

Post by ruairi og » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:51 pm

any videos on dynamic paddling techniques?

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Seanie
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Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:27 pm

Re: The Low Brace Turn

Post by Seanie » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:10 pm

Simon Westgarth from Gene17 has a Bunch of Videos:
http://vimeo.com/gene17kayaking

I'm really proud of that discussion, not only did Rob Coffey weigh in, but so did Kim Siekerman, Ali Donald, Mike Jones, Simon Westgarth,etc.

ruairi og
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:11 pm

Re: The Low Brace Turn

Post by ruairi og » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:47 pm

Thanks Seanie. I just had to make sure what type of stroke was in question with dynamice paddling. It's ok though, it's what I do :D

Simon92
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:26 am

Re: The Low Brace Turn

Post by Simon92 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:08 pm

Having read 4 pages of the old thread today(and having read it before), I have only one real situation for using a low brace turn(when not preparing people for assessments), that is purely to give an active method of practicing the low brace, rather than just floating on the spot.

Just thought I'd give Andrew a direct answer as to what situations I would personally teach it in!

tiernan
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:37 pm

Re: The Low Brace Turn

Post by tiernan » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:58 am

AndrewR wrote:This is a question to all people who act in an instructor capacity in Irish kayaking.

Do you teach the low brace turn as a means of breaking into the flow? If you do, then why?
Agreed with what you're getting at!
AndrewR wrote:I can see why, Ive just read the Canoeing Ireland Level 3 and Level 4 syllabi and it is included, I intend on completing my hours and becoming a L.3 instructor in the near future, but ya I have no intention right now of teaching that. Unless there's a strong voice among CI instructors who disagree can the skills requirements be updated?
I guess think of it this way, how much pointless crap do we learn in school, college, life... (Long division and all the shit you learn to pass the driving test come to mind). Its just the curriculum, and mostly a curriculum that is designed to PASS a test as oppose to master the subject.

It does need to be updated but you should still teach by it if you are a certified instructor. It would suck if you were instructing some young lad and he went on to fail his assessment because he couldn't do it/ do it properly (but to be fair, I'd say most of the assessors would see that he knew what he was doing by not doing it - but there is always one dick!).

The focus should be getting it changed at the official level (at the Training Unit meetings) not the practical level by refusing to teach it (Yeah we all know the latter worked for Michael Collins like...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcJGPKdgGBE[/video]

.... but it would drag a load of innocent beginner paddlers into the middle of an ICU civil war.

Teach both methods, emphasis on - that they should only use one for passing the test. Danger here is total confusion.

[/my2cents]

paddymcc
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:04 am
Contact:

Re: The Low Brace Turn

Post by paddymcc » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:13 am

Hi All,

Agree with the majority of the feelings and Thoughts Here!

If you wish for Change to Occur then I would do the Following:
1: Put together an email which highlights the issues you see within the Syllabi
2: If others you know feel this way too get them to do the Same
3: Email it Marked " Attention TDU" and send it too [email protected] you can also cc it direct to me [email protected] and ill make sure it is brought to a meeting.
4: Attend TDU AGM'S/CPD's this is where you can meet lots of Instructors and talk your feelings/ideas through!


All of the TDU's work is Voluntary, most on the committee are full time Instructors and love the sport wanting the best for it, however I would say most dont flick through these forums that often. Contact them Directly to get your voice heard attend AGM's and CPD workshops and encourage others to do so! The TDU needs Feedback/direction from its body of Instructors get in contact!

www.tdu.ie

Cheers
Paddy

J P
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: The Low Brace Turn

Post by J P » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:29 pm

Hi.

In relation to award scheme issues/queries, e-mails should go to [email protected].

To answer the question, I do use the low brace turn in my teaching but in an appropriate context - as a progression or task for some groups but not for breaking in/out. I have also seen some top paddlers use the technique on low volume steep creeks. Really it doesn't matter what technique you use (for most Irish rivers) as long as you have good EAST - Edge, Angle, Speed and Timing. Generally you need more or less of each of these parts to succeed in your manoeuvre, whatever it is. Someone who understands the application of the principles in EAST can catch an eddy using whatever technique they want. Those that don't understand struggle regardless of whether it is a low brace turn or an inside stroke...

Assessing skills awards I am much more outcome focussed – did the person catch the eddy well? Etc. Students still need to be able to perform all skills/techniques but again, in an appropriate context. In my opinion, breaking in/out is not the appropriate context for a low brace turn.

I don't see how simply changing the syllabus will affect how we teach kayaking dynamically. We have a culture within Irish kayaking that we are still trying to catch up with the massive evolution that has occurred from Dancers to today (check the move 01:25 into this http://www.exchile.com/google_Stikine__2000.html for some "new school" moves in a Dancer or pirouette I think!). A programme of compulsory continual professional development workshops for all instructors is being run out - maybe it would be useful if one of these workshops was to cover this topic?

Honestly, after spending the guts of the last 3 years involved with syllabus development with the TDU committee and CI office, I see this as a minor issue within the advancement of the award scheme. It is definitely an issue that needs to be looked into and hopefully it will soon. Any volunteers?

JP

canned
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:37 am

Re: The Low Brace Turn

Post by canned » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:37 pm

I think at the time of that original discussion I felt that there may be a place for the low brace turn.

The so called "new school" paddling simply shouldn't be referred to as "new school" anymore IMO. There are many paddlers who end up with level 3 instructor skills who appear to still teach to the syllabus and that won't change until the syllabus is changed. There are many other instructors who will teach it as a part of the syllabus but also to go the step further and spend that bit of extra time showing the more dynamic methods.

I remember asking here years ago about this whole dynamic paddling technique and really, none of the descriptions made complete sense to me at the time. It's only after some coaching from a quality coach that the sense is really seen. To me, it's about using the boat as it's been designed for and trying to maintain momentum. Basically driving the boat and making use of forward momentum and hull shape.

There are a few situations where you get lots of speed and can carry that speed into an eddy without having to continue with forward strokes. It's here that I think people possibly still use a low brace but not specifically to turn.

I know I've noticed the difference in first years in UL over the years. Some years when beginners are taught some fundamentals like posture, paddle box, look where you want to go and to try to make every stroke a forward stroke they end up really driving the boat around. I think sometimes people who have been paddling a long time and have stuck to the way they learned regard these dynamic techniques as advanced. They're absolutely not; beginners can be taught these very simple techniques right from the start.

AndrewR
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:00 pm

Re: The Low Brace Turn

Post by AndrewR » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:49 pm

canned wrote:I think sometimes people who have been paddling a long time and have stuck to the way they learned regard these dynamic techniques as advanced. They're absolutely not; beginners can be taught these very simple techniques right from the start.
100% agree. Torso rotation etc, should be taught from the very first session.

J P
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: The Low Brace Turn

Post by J P » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:38 pm

Hi.

Check out the proposed change to the Level 2 Skills Award:

http://tdu.ie/index.php/2012/11/change- ... lls-award/

or like the 'Canoeing Ireland Training and Development Unit' facebook page.

Comments and feedback please!

JP
Low-Brace-Turn-Proposal.pdf
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