Low brace turns, pointless?

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Kim
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by Kim » Thu May 01, 2008 8:56 pm

Sorry, didn't realise there were four more pages until after I posted my last one. One thing after seeing those clips: Are we slalom paddlers with slalom boats or are we white water paddlers with creekboats and playboats? Different aim (trying to make gates just inside the eddyline!), different boat, different technique. But I realise it's hard to change a concept after believing it for years. Like hearing Santa Clause is not real, or that feeding your wheel through your hands is for grannies...

I would love to volunteer to help out with the hard facts, research etc if needed?

Kim

PS why on EARTH does the ICU want us to "come to rest high up the eddy, just inside the eddyline and parallel to it"? That would mean you have to reverse to somewhere in the eddy where you can assume the proper angle and make the speed you need to get out again... Extra work and unnecessary if you ask me.

saoirsenamara
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by saoirsenamara » Thu May 01, 2008 11:30 pm

I can't believe i've finally been sucked in by one of these interweb chat yokes...., but lads there's no question, the low brace turn, went out with the ark, and word has it that even back then, Noah found it a bit old fashioned!
Its my opinion that there's no point even teaching this stuff even at beginner stage, because once the paddler has progressed much at all, they are going to need to "unlearn" all this if they're going to progress to a good fluid / dynamic way of paddling. The same could be said for the bow rudder- why not call it a modified bow draw, or whatever you like really, as long as it keeps to the basic principals of a strong body position and correct boat control.
Currently the syllabi for ICU qualifications are in need of updating to keep abreast of current paddling techniques and boat designs, but before I start ICU bashing, what it needs is a group of motivated people to sit down and put forward proposals to the training unit for apropriate changes to be made. This would be a big job, and time consuming- but someone's gotta do it.. and I feel that they would be taken into consideration. I don't think its right to be super critical of the current syllabus if nobody's put in serious suggestions on how it should be.
Ali

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rlynch
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by rlynch » Fri May 02, 2008 12:11 pm

Kim, presumably if you're in the eddy on your own, feel free to put your boat where you'd like. However, the eddy line will be most narrow at the top of the eddy and so to spend the least amount of time possible on it, it would make sense to hit it high.

I don't think it makes much sense in a group situation though. If you're leading a group into an eddy, I think it makes sense to put yourself at the top of the eddy and have everyone else fall in behind you in the same running order. This leaves you free, as leader, to chase off after somone who's had a problem or missed the eddy, etc.

Edit: Actually, not in the same running order, but at least leave the leader free at the top of the eddy to break into the flow as quickly and easily as necessary.

Ross
Last edited by rlynch on Fri May 02, 2008 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We would leave home in the morning and could play all day, as long as we were back before it got dark. No one was able to reach us and no one minded!

annie
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Location: Galway

Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by annie » Fri May 02, 2008 12:27 pm

Ali wrote:what it needs is a group of motivated people to sit down and put forward proposals to the training unit for apropriate changes to be made. This would be a big job, and time consuming- but someone's gotta do it.
It sounds like yourself, Rob and Kim would be ideal candidates for this, and would know who else would be useful. Or are there any other volunteers? ;)
Ross wrote:If you're leading a group into an eddy, I think it makes sense to put yourself at the top of the eddy and have everyone else fall in behind you in the same running order.
If I'm paddling with beginner river-running types I prefer to catch the eddy at the top, as usual, but drop back to allow them to catch it at the top too, to make it easier for them to break out. If paddling with peers or beginners who are reasonably confident at breaking out it's easier (IMO) to just fall in behind.

Kim
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by Kim » Fri May 02, 2008 1:31 pm

kernel wrote: to spend the least amount of time possible on it, it would make sense to hit it high.
Ross
I think it is a great idea to hit the eddy high. I just don't think it's a good idea to 'rest' the boat there. This is where the phenomenon arises of a whole club full of people banging into each other trying to reverse into a safe spot. You can hit the eddy high, put a stroke to the inside of the turn and pull yourself straight in to where the bank is.
kernel wrote:
it makes sense to put yourself at the top of the eddy and have everyone else fall in behind you in the same running order. This leaves you free, as leader, to chase off after somone who's had a problem or missed the eddy, etc.Ross
Another great idea. I like being free to go where I can help people. But where would you like the rest of the group to go. Right nice and close behind you, just inside the eddy line, where the eddy line is starting to get less and less sharp? Or do you use a different technique to get into the eddy if you're the second or third paddler in the group?
I would probably prefer to demonstrate the right technique, see people glide right into the eddy and end up parallell to the bank, right close to it, so I have the whole eddy for myself to dodge incoming traffic or go to help a swimmer out. And have the space to actually make a bit of speed out of the eddy.

Just wondering, Is this Ross, Rossco from Murroe???

Dave Crerar
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by Dave Crerar » Fri May 02, 2008 2:01 pm

if there are a bunch of people going to propose a new syllabus i'd be game to get in with that

Polo Eoin
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by Polo Eoin » Fri May 02, 2008 2:21 pm

Catch the eddie high, drop back a bit to let the group catch it high too and watch in case they capsize trying to sweep and low brace into it :P

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rlynch
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by rlynch » Fri May 02, 2008 2:31 pm

Kim,

Nope, Ross from Galway.

I misunderstood your point earlier and agree with what you're saying about sitting on the eddy line being quite silly.

On your second point: Yes, if I was leading I would prefer to 'have the eddy to myself' as it were, with the rest of the group hugging the bank and not idly paddling around behind where space is tight. Of course this all depends on the group, the size of the eddy, the flow on the river…

Ross
We would leave home in the morning and could play all day, as long as we were back before it got dark. No one was able to reach us and no one minded!

mike jones
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by mike jones » Fri May 02, 2008 3:38 pm

Rob Coffey wrote: How? The low brace turn is not an excellent progression to dynamic style as it is a fundamentally different approach. Dynamic style involves driving the boat and keeping speed through the turn using an active blade. The low brace turn involves losing speed on a passive blade.The only thing the low brace turn is a progression to is spending lots of time upside down.
To paddle dynamicaly into an eddy the kayaker must gain speed, establish the correct angle, edge the boat, initiate a turn (with an outside stroke) and carve the boat into the eddy, paddling on the inside of the turn to maintain speed and direction. You can argue the timing of these elements but this is the general concept.

For me this is alot to intoduce to a person at first and by encouraging somebody to paddle all the time distracts from the point that they need to learn to use their hull to carve a smooth arc into the eddy, this is a vital skill in dynmic paddling. By initially teaching the same skill without the inside strokes you are teaching how to approach with speed and establish the correct angle and lean, but instead of paddling you get the student to carve the boat into the eddy. now add a low brace (with the blade out of the water) and you have the first steps to them learning how to break out. Once they have mastered this skill on easy water it is a small step to introducing the idea of being more proactive with forward strokes to maintain momentum.

This is how i would commonly teach peolpe and find it effective and progressive, while at the same time keeping to the syllabus. Yes you can argue all you want that it does not work but the bottom line is, it is there and if you want to go and change the syllabus best of luck, alot of work has been put into the new system and I don't think the paddle pass guys or the ICU are in any hurry to change it.

What i'm sure would not be a problem however is putting a modern prgressive/dynamic spin on the techniques. In particular the bow rudder does not have to be a text book old school blade open, round the lamp post type stroke, it can be a combination of a bow draw into forward stroke, effective and dyanmic, similar to how eoin paddles in the slalom vid.

The other issue I see with these types of strokes is that they do not have a name, Ali introduced me to the concept of paddling on the inside of the turn about 8 or 9 years ago and at the time it was new and unnamed, it still does not have a name or a definition. As Kim mentioned until this can be established it cannot be named in a syllabus as there is no way to assess it.

And don't forget the new syllabus allows for the more dynamic style of paddling in both breaking in and out, yes it is worded a little strange with the whole parralell to eddy line blah blah blah. Bottom line is this is written as a guideline definition for assessing people for their level 3, they need to finish high in the eddy and pointing upstream are what i take from it, i'm not going to be out with a ruler or set square to see how parralel or perpendicular they are.

Excellent debate by the way, if people are keen to make changes then i think you are barking up the wrong tree changing syllabi. For me the place to start is with the instructors and changing their mindset and getting everybody on the same page. At present there seems to be at least 2 schools of thought out there and these need to come toether and agree on a common direction.
Peace
Mike

Kim
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by Kim » Fri May 02, 2008 5:18 pm

And that's why we like Mike. ;) Always got a comment worth listening to. I agree we need to change from down instructors level. I don't think we should be afraid to also start the work on the how and what and why of that new syllabus as well, because it will get there in time.

x

stealT
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 9:23 pm

Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by stealT » Fri May 02, 2008 9:40 pm

a low brace works well against a bar counter, especially when rob buys the beer -
its been awhile since i used a low brace. :D

i 've a great photo, must go an scan it in.

JimmyH
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Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 9:16 pm

Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by JimmyH » Sun May 04, 2008 9:20 pm

Does anyone know a book or something that teaches this dynamic style? Im looking to learn this style as the ICU stuff isnt to flash. Any ideas where I could get learning it?

KevEgan
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by KevEgan » Mon May 05, 2008 12:07 pm

Does anyone else think that using a low brace turn is a great way to introduce the concepts of looking where you want to go and that your boat can be controlled and turned by using your edge to beginners?

And that getting a level 3 skills assessment candidate to demonstrate this skill can give give a good measure of how comfortable the candidate is with these concepts?

I totally agree that paddlers should be thaught to actively/dynamically paddle from the start and if you look at the whole the Euro paddle pass syllabus level 3 syllabus it allows for that...

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