Low brace turns, pointless?

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canned
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by canned » Wed May 07, 2008 10:42 pm

Personally, I don't think that teaching the low brace turn with the cavaet of that it is only usefull in weak water is something that gets locked into someone's paddling. I don't think it did with me, having been tought the more active method of paddling the inside of the turn I can't say that I use the LBT anymore.
But that's just me - more frustrating is the apparent lack of info out there on this mystical dynamic paddling technique. I know, I know.... the general feeling is that the syllabus needs a change, to be updated, and I'm sure this is where the info can come from but it still puzzles me how about an hour of web searches doesn't really produce anything. Especially so when it seems that freestyle instructional bits seem fairly widely available....

I'd hate this to be taken up as having a dig but if it's so important and frustrating for trainers then how is it so apparently difficult to get the info without being forced to pay out for training? Are there general principals covering dynamic & active paddling or is it just that.. "active" as in, always drive the boat, don't use braking strokes, bracing is for stability and recovery - not direction. I'm under no illusion that it's as simple as that - I'd just love to see the info more available rather than the term "dynamic paddling" being used to sell stuff...
Pyranha Sales Blurb wrote:Packed with punch for the freestyle enthusiast, the Rev takes the high performance of the 4-Twenty a stage further. The Rev incorporates the latest design concepts for dynamic paddling. It takes the aerial performance of the 4-Twenty and puts it in a more forgiving package.
Tony

JimmyH
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by JimmyH » Thu May 08, 2008 2:39 pm

This is excatly what i was wondering tony. were can we find out about this style if its so
canned wrote:I'd hate this to be taken up as having a dig but if it's so important and frustrating for trainers then how is it so apparently difficult to get the info without being forced to pay out for training? Are there general principals covering dynamic & active paddling or is it just that.. "active" as in, always drive the boat, don't use braking strokes, bracing is for stability and recovery - not direction. I'm under no illusion that it's as simple as that - I'd just love to see the info more available rather than the term "dynamic paddling" being used to sell stuff...
excalty what i was wondering- where can you learn this stuff without going to the alps for training? i dont mind headin to the alps but my pocket might. so is there a fair bit to it or is it just paddle hard and dont brake kinda thing? anyone know of a detailed book knida like the way fresco francos book whitewater rescue is to safety, is there some book out there as detailed for dynamic paddling?

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Simon D Westgarth
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by Simon D Westgarth » Sun May 25, 2008 11:19 am

mike jones wrote:
Rob Coffey wrote: How? The low brace turn is not an excellent progression to dynamic style as it is a fundamentally different approach. Dynamic style involves driving the boat and keeping speed through the turn using an active blade. The low brace turn involves losing speed on a passive blade.The only thing the low brace turn is a progression to is spending lots of time upside down.
To paddle dynamicaly into an eddy the kayaker must gain speed, establish the correct angle, edge the boat, initiate a turn (with an outside stroke) and carve the boat into the eddy, paddling on the inside of the turn to maintain speed and direction. You can argue the timing of these elements but this is the general concept.
Mike, take a look at your list, imagine being a learner with that many points to remember? Are you likely to be successful, probably not. Like any technique taught, if its not useful for the development of a persons sporting career, this technique should not be taught. Undoing incorrect technique is extremely challenging for the learner as well as the teacher.

Now to the sharp end of the issue, the sport has progress in terms of boat design, participation numbers and accessibility. To argue that the techniques developed 30-40 years ago to turn a 4m narrow round hulled boats are the same required today to turn a 2.5m box chimed kayak is nonsensical. In the 4m boat, you needed to help the boat to start to turn, and with little or no side wall on the hull some kind of brace was required. Modern boats have no difficulty turning, in fact they turn very fast, some times too fast, and thus we need to consider a technique that can accommodate this radical change in the boat's performance characteristics. Furthermore when a modern boat is on edge it is very stable relative to earlier designs and a paddler does not need a brace to maintain stability. The sport has moved on, and thus the technique we use needs to reflect these developments.

The short falls of the low brace turn are considerable, the stroke in its long established prescribed delivery, recommends that we need an initiation sweep stroke, and some kind of brace placed somewhere in the back quarter of the turning arc. The initial sweep for a short boat, means the boat starts turning well before the eddy line, often meaning the boat with skid sideways over the eddyline! A bracing paddle place be hide the paddler somewhere in the back quarter of the turning arc, is pretty much a breaking stroke, forcing the boat to slow down, and again skid into the skid. What really concerns myself about all this is that the LBT is in affect a static stroke, and to use such a stroke in a dynamic environment often means the paddler loses out, in true its useless. Ask a skier if they would consider planting their hand down on a turn, or a mountain biker when travelling at speed, if they would place their foot on the ground when going around a fast bend, both would ask if you were proper in the head for posing such a foolish question!

The solution needs to be a dynamic, we must maximise the turning radius to effectively bend or curve our momentum through a turn. In a short boat, a solution is, an inside forward stroke as the boat enters the eddy line. Once the paddler has pull their boat across the eddy line, the forward stroke can become a stern rudder where the upper body is rotated into the turn. There should be considerable pressure on the blade face, and this pressure, ie. this energy is used to maintain stability, thus a dynamic solution for a dynamic situation. There is no need for a coach to speak about edging, as with correct rotation the boat automatically edges, and most importantly for new learners, everything is on the inside of the turn, and thus they are highly unlikely to fall over.

At G17 we have been using this approach for teaching paddlers for many years, with considerable results. Dave Carroll has started to call this technique a hip rudder, as the nature of the turn means that the positive blade pressure is pulled towards the paddlers hips to access the energy available. We do not coach the low brace turn or bow rudder.
canned wrote:I'd hate this to be taken up as having a dig but if it's so important and frustrating for trainers then how is it so apparently difficult to get the info without being forced to pay out for training? Are there general principals covering dynamic & active paddling or is it just that.. "active" as in, always drive the boat, don't use braking strokes, bracing is for stability and recovery - not direction. I'm under no illusion that it's as simple as that - I'd just love to see the info more available rather than the term "dynamic paddling" being used to sell stuff...
Pyranha Sales Blurb wrote:Packed with punch for the freestyle enthusiast, the Rev takes the high performance of the 4-Twenty a stage further. The Rev incorporates the latest design concepts for dynamic paddling. It takes the aerial performance of the 4-Twenty and puts it in a more forgiving package.
For some time, I have been working on a new DVD that deliveries the world of dynamic paddling in a way that can be accessible to all. Genotype 2 will be available in DVD format from November, with all the footage shot in HD and on the fabled Soca River in Slovenia.

Cheers

Simon

Warren
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by Warren » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:24 pm

I agree with The Dynamic school of thought here re Low brace turns. I've found that rather than a stroke that beginners can use easily, they take more time to learn it than just a carving turn for getting into the eddy in the first place. the Low brace part of it is confusing for them and pointless really.
But are people saying thet the bow rudder has no place in dynamic paddling or is it down to how you do it? The static bow rudder at the front of the boat is surely not taught by anyone anymore? When i started paddling, playing polo years ago, we always used the bow rudder as slalom paddlers do, kepping constant pressure on the blade, pulling in an arc to the front of the boat and changing the starting point and angle t suit the situation and thats still how i do and teach it now. I do think its necessary to use it sometimes when breaking in, for very small eddies, especially in the middle of the river. Surely driving in on a forward stroke with lots of speed is going to bring you clean out the other side in that situation?


With regard to the syllabus, wouldn't it be better to dictate the outocmes that should be achievable at the different levels rather thanspecific methods of achieving those outcomes. If we specify how something should be doen, in ten years time, it'll be out of date again.
eg. At level three, a candidate should be able to break into an eddy on grade 2 water rather than specifying what stroke should be used.
Then we can leave it up to instructors to teach what works best. Of course this relies on those instructors having enough pride in what they do to keep their own skills up to date.

all imho of course :)

Adrians
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by Adrians » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:22 pm

Warren wrote: At level three, a candidate should be able to break into an eddy on grade 2 water rather than specifying what stroke should be used.
Then we can leave it up to instructors to teach what works best. Of course this relies on those instructors having enough pride in what they do to keep their own skills up to date.
Here here!

In fairness the ICU are trying to address this, and are trying to encourage personal development amoung coaches

Ross Redmond
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Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

Post by Ross Redmond » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:41 pm


    Best Thread Ever, we even got Westgarth and Bruiser Coffey up here! Hi Guys!

    I dont really have to post anything but I noticed nobody has mentioned the words "culture, mentality or paradigm" yet so read on if thats your bag.

    Personally for me its very simple - turning into or out of the flow is a simple manouver which does not require a bracing stroke to help me out. This is because I have a boat that is designed to balance on edge and change direction with the greatest of ease. (Wavesport Habitat in case your wondering, a green one). Everone can learn how to use they're boat to do this, and I mean EVERYONE.

    In terms of teaching - I would like to think that moving smoothly and efficiently around the river is the way to go therefore thats what I encourage (Teach/Coach). Realistically, boats are so stable and turny theses days that all our focus should be on power and speed around the river, not falling in. I believe that we should only use braces if we really need them i.e. when we unexpectedly loose our balance. The rest of the time we are using our paddles to drive the boat (usually on edge) into and out of eddies, through features etc.

    This is a mentality/culture/paradigm that I believe should be encouraged at the earliest possible stage of the paddlers development.

    So come on now people, lets shake of thirty years of fear and insecurity about our ability to get through a break-out without bracing!!!

    Repeat after me........

    We can be fast and clean around the river!

    We can balance on the edge of our boats that are designed to be stable on edge!

    We can rely on momentum and body rotation to get the most from our boats that are designed to turn using only momentum and body rotation!

    Yes, we can!

    I even had Peadar "Delta" Maguire and Joe "Howy're Garda?" Ryan thinking about this stuff recently. Ground breaking.

    Ciao

    Rosco (from Murroe, Hi Kim!)
    Last edited by Ross Redmond on Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

    Micheal Mc Sweeney
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    Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

    Post by Micheal Mc Sweeney » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:49 am

    Kim wrote: Like hearing Santa Clause is not real,.
    :o Say it aint so. :o

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    Seanie
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    Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

    Post by Seanie » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:19 pm

    Bumping up some good threads from years gone by.

    AndyJ
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    Re: Low brace turns, pointless?

    Post by AndyJ » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:35 pm

    The thing is, I use low brace turns. Only when I'm entering an eddy in a lazy manner. Which probably means its a bad skill to teach early. Because if I WANT to make an eddy, I'll never use a low brace turn. I'll be paddling forward across the eddy line with edge.

    So pointless... probably not. Are there better skills to teach early, definitely!
    Creek boats are boring.

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