Right,
So, Seanie removed the thread and replies and locked the thread on my original post from last evening.
First off - Seanie, I completely understand you position and when you rang me earlier and I was in my characteristically cranky form it was because I was in a rescheduled lab resulting in 4 hours of BS we'd already done followed by meeting up with a group for a project (and I'm sure you know how that goes!) At the time I dodn't know the post was taken down either so it wasn't anything to do with that.
So, while I mentioned a legal situation, it was never my intention that any time would be spent on it really. More than anything I just felt it needed to be out in the public domain. Gossip is way worse than an honest statement of there being due process IMO.
More than anything, the title of this thread reflects what I would like to hear people's opinions on. If you have ICU membership you have the right to that opinion.
For me, I see it as a broken system where many paddlers are not truly represented. I absolutely understand that training monies etc are not evenly distributed (you might disagree?) given that the truth is that some disciplines are very competition orientated. However, that doesn't mean that the value of a discipline shouldn't be reasonably supported.
So (in my opinion) the system is broken - however, there are plenty of positives that can be pointed to. I think many will agree that there is a different feel of what the ICU offers since Benny stepped into his role. A few years ago, there was a big dig at the low brace turn being on the syllabus - but there's a lot more to the syllabus that is valuable.
Back to frustration though! People seem to have been suggesting change/reform is needed for years. Why hasn't it happened? What are the barriers? Are there barriers or is there just no continuity to follow through? If that's the case then how is it that some within the organisation have been within it for years have not provided that continuity? Or have they been denied the opportunity?
If you have no opinion on any of the above, please at least answer the following:
Do you have any idea of the structure of the ICU? (my understanding is not complete - but surely that's part of the issue?)
Tony
ICU in need of reform?
Re: ICU in need of reform?
Cheers Tony,
I'm in total agreement with your sentiments here. I too am unsatisfied, having said that things are slowly getting better, but I'm still not happy, things should be much better. I started off with a list of 20+ things I wanted changed about 3 or 4 years ago. You can see some of the stuff I was talking about in some of my forum posts, on ICU AGM motions and on a few stories on the IWW front page. I went from trying to change things by running head on at the ICU, to working with them, working within the system. Since then at least 20 of those things have been implemented in full or in part. New people are showing up on the executive board, Training and development with the ICU is a great resource and the last ICU AGM was nothing short of great. The discussions at the AGM were frank and I came away hopeful. But the job is far from finished, the ICU is still a black box in many ways. More transparency is needed, and with that will come new people, active paddlers, with fresh ideas.
I would urge people to attend an AGM, read AGM minutes, motions and agendas, read the audited accounts. This will give people a good base on the scope of the ICU, and go forward from there. I've learned a lot over the last few years trying to effect change within the ICU, certain things aren't as simple as they appear. The ICU has many, many masters, some internal, some external and has to satisfy each one. Its a tricky job, and is part of what is crippling the ICU. If anyone wants to get involved in the ICU, I would be more than happy to share what I've learned over the last few years.
I'm in total agreement with your sentiments here. I too am unsatisfied, having said that things are slowly getting better, but I'm still not happy, things should be much better. I started off with a list of 20+ things I wanted changed about 3 or 4 years ago. You can see some of the stuff I was talking about in some of my forum posts, on ICU AGM motions and on a few stories on the IWW front page. I went from trying to change things by running head on at the ICU, to working with them, working within the system. Since then at least 20 of those things have been implemented in full or in part. New people are showing up on the executive board, Training and development with the ICU is a great resource and the last ICU AGM was nothing short of great. The discussions at the AGM were frank and I came away hopeful. But the job is far from finished, the ICU is still a black box in many ways. More transparency is needed, and with that will come new people, active paddlers, with fresh ideas.
I would urge people to attend an AGM, read AGM minutes, motions and agendas, read the audited accounts. This will give people a good base on the scope of the ICU, and go forward from there. I've learned a lot over the last few years trying to effect change within the ICU, certain things aren't as simple as they appear. The ICU has many, many masters, some internal, some external and has to satisfy each one. Its a tricky job, and is part of what is crippling the ICU. If anyone wants to get involved in the ICU, I would be more than happy to share what I've learned over the last few years.
Re: ICU in need of reform?
And indeed *hand up*: Guilty... I've never attended an ICU AGM.
I need to.... because I admit, I simply don't understand the internal workings.
However, What I would say is that where there is a will, there is a way.
Maybe I'm just a cynic - maybe people don't feel the need for change....
I need to.... because I admit, I simply don't understand the internal workings.
However, What I would say is that where there is a will, there is a way.
Maybe I'm just a cynic - maybe people don't feel the need for change....
Re: ICU in need of reform?
Sorry I hit reply prematurely in my earlier post and never addressed your main question.canned wrote:And indeed *hand up*: Guilty... I've never attended an ICU AGM.
I need to.... because I admit, I simply don't understand the internal workings.
However, What I would say is that where there is a will, there is a way.
Maybe I'm just a cynic - maybe people don't feel the need for change....
A member that's unhappy with the ICU shouldn't be expected to give up large amounts of their time trying to fix the ICU, those with the power should recognise legitimate complaints and act on them, but sadly thats not the case just yet. And its part of the problem too. So people have to muck in and help out.
As for the structure of the ICU that you asked for originally, I can try to give a rough outline.
This is my very rushed, probably flawed understanding of how it works. Its similar to other organisations.
- The Management Board
- The Executive Board
- The Staff - Including the CEO
The Staff, are made up of training and development officers, secretaries etc. But the important staff member is the CEO. The CEO attends Board meetings and executive meetings. The CEO is responsible for carrying out the wishes of the boards, but also informing the boards about what the best course of action is, and carrying out the day to day business of the ICU as in their executive capacity (ie. make their own decisions, independent of the board)
So there, you have it there's the Political side of the ICU and the Staff/Company, and the CEO acts as a go between.
- Management Board ( 12+ people): Month to month
- Executive Board ( 5 people) : week to week
- CEO (1): Day to day
Some more details on the Structure of the ICU from the ICU website:
http://canoe.ie/Information/AbouttheCan ... fault.aspx
Re: ICU in need of reform?
Yes... as should anyone who's ever done an ICU instructor training course, it's been covered in powerpoint on every course I've been to?canned wrote:If you have no opinion on any of the above, please at least answer the following:
Do you have any idea of the structure of the ICU? (my understanding is not complete - but surely that's part of the issue?)
I would imagine any ordinary club member who's never bothered to find out may not have a great understanding, and possibly doesn't need to either, but anyone who gets involved with the ICU, be it through doing training courses, or by standing on a committee for any of the disciplines should understand the structure fairly well.
Muireann
Re: ICU in need of reform?
Hey,
There is a good but to reply to in the original post but it looks like Seanie gave a good out line of how things work. Like Murriean said an all ICU Instructor courses they run a "Structure of the ICU" module and on the canoe,ie website they do include a section that lays out how things are set up here, there could be a fair argument that an even greater effort could be made to make things even more straight forward. There is a document somewhere on the on the site that for the life of me can't find again that gives a good explanation to the day to day running of the board.
I can give a very simplified answer to this though.
Like Seanie I to have also attended numerous AGMs submitted motions and the like, and there has been a move for change in recent years both in the day to day operations of the ICU and the overall direction the ICU is taken on a Executive Level.
For me one of the frustrating things and possible primary ways why change does not happen quicker is when it comes to AGM time its the same few faces showing up all of the time. They people represent some of the biggest clubs in the country and hold allot of votes on motions. Combine that with from what I have seen in previous years Board members also seem to be the ones holding the proxy votes from their clubs. The result of all this is when a hand full of souls are brave enough to stick their head above the parapet they are either shot down or their words fall on deaf ears.
Without going too into the running of an ICU AGM, yes there is the possibility of individual members to form voting blocks ( 10 people per block if memory serves me?) and these if they all agree on a point can vote as a block making up one vote. This all has to be pre arranged before the AGM takes place and I for one have never seen this happen.
So if we the recreational (white water) paddlers don't in some way organize ourselves we will forever be under represented at board and AGM level. As already stated its not fair nor should it be necessary "A member that's unhappy with the ICU shouldn't be expected to give up large amounts of their time trying to fix the ICU, those with the power should recognise legitimate complaints and act on them, but sadly thats not the case just yet"
If we want to affect change for the better we are going to have to organize and muck in.
Adrian
There is a good but to reply to in the original post but it looks like Seanie gave a good out line of how things work. Like Murriean said an all ICU Instructor courses they run a "Structure of the ICU" module and on the canoe,ie website they do include a section that lays out how things are set up here, there could be a fair argument that an even greater effort could be made to make things even more straight forward. There is a document somewhere on the on the site that for the life of me can't find again that gives a good explanation to the day to day running of the board.
I can give a very simplified answer to this though.
I was of the same opinion until I discovered how the funding comes in for "Carded" and "Olympic" athletes, these are funds that are awarded directly to the paddlers from the Irish Olympic Council and the Sports Council. Although the it operates through the ICU they have no say in how the money is spent. This means that none recognized disciplines such as Freestyle, Whitewater etc just aren't eligible to access these funds from those issuing them. There is a bit more to it than that but that's the rough outline.canned wrote: For me, I see it as a broken system where many paddlers are not truly represented. I absolutely understand that training monies etc are not evenly distributed (you might disagree?) given that the truth is that some disciplines are very competition orientated. However, that doesn't mean that the value of a discipline shouldn't be reasonably supported.
Like Seanie I to have also attended numerous AGMs submitted motions and the like, and there has been a move for change in recent years both in the day to day operations of the ICU and the overall direction the ICU is taken on a Executive Level.
For me one of the frustrating things and possible primary ways why change does not happen quicker is when it comes to AGM time its the same few faces showing up all of the time. They people represent some of the biggest clubs in the country and hold allot of votes on motions. Combine that with from what I have seen in previous years Board members also seem to be the ones holding the proxy votes from their clubs. The result of all this is when a hand full of souls are brave enough to stick their head above the parapet they are either shot down or their words fall on deaf ears.
Without going too into the running of an ICU AGM, yes there is the possibility of individual members to form voting blocks ( 10 people per block if memory serves me?) and these if they all agree on a point can vote as a block making up one vote. This all has to be pre arranged before the AGM takes place and I for one have never seen this happen.
So if we the recreational (white water) paddlers don't in some way organize ourselves we will forever be under represented at board and AGM level. As already stated its not fair nor should it be necessary "A member that's unhappy with the ICU shouldn't be expected to give up large amounts of their time trying to fix the ICU, those with the power should recognise legitimate complaints and act on them, but sadly thats not the case just yet"
If we want to affect change for the better we are going to have to organize and muck in.
Adrian
Re: ICU in need of reform?
Seanie,or any of you, have you tried before to organize people to give you there proxy vote. I would make a effort of getting people concerned about the ICU but unable attend to sign over there vote to a person nominated on this site, would the others posting on this thread be willing to organise the people they paddle with and do the same?. I'm pretty sure the agm is due to be called in late march or April but could be wrong there. now is the perfect time to reopen the debate on what is it whitewater and freestyle paddlers want changed and to elect a person to carry are votes and raise these issues. I'm planning on attending the next agm if its called after the 1st of April as ill be away before then. I would be happy to be that person, but think having never attended a agm before, someone who has attended before or better still sat on the main committee would be best. any thoughts?
087 9862517/ [email protected]
Intelligence is what you use when you dont know what to do
Intelligence is what you use when you dont know what to do
Re: ICU in need of reform?
Getting a group together for a voting block can be difficult, and rarely happens. Its easier just to get people to join a club. That was one of the core reasons I created the Irish Whitewater Club. The voting block rules need to be reformed. I paid the club affiliation fees myself and few friends became members but due to work/illness I haven't kept it up. And I'm in California now so I doubt I'll be keeping it going. If anyone one else would like to use it to organise a block, feel free to drop me a mail.roshaw_87 wrote:Seanie,or any of you, have you tried before to organize people to give you there proxy vote. I would make a effort of getting people concerned about the ICU but unable attend to sign over there vote to a person nominated on this site, would the others posting on this thread be willing to organise the people they paddle with and do the same?. I'm pretty sure the agm is due to be called in late march or April but could be wrong there. now is the perfect time to reopen the debate on what is it whitewater and freestyle paddlers want changed and to elect a person to carry are votes and raise these issues. I'm planning on attending the next agm if its called after the 1st of April as ill be away before then. I would be happy to be that person, but think having never attended a agm before, someone who has attended before or better still sat on the main committee would be best. any thoughts?
At the last AGM I was the proxy for NUIGKC, GKC and Irishwhitewater kayak club. As far as I'm aware, I was one of the people with the most amount of vote cards, bar some of the executive members of the ICU. Thats how the system works, the motions and debates are won and lost before the actual AGM, it boils down to who has the most votes. Its a shame a lot of clubs don't use their votes, a few votes go a long way.25. Each Delegate at a Delegate Meeting shall cast votes on behalf of and in accordance with the wishes of the ICU Registered Club that the Delegate represents.
26. Each ICU Registered Club shall received votes in direct proportion to the number of Senior Members on the current nominal role held by the Honorary Secretary of the Union. The specific ratio shall be one vote per club plus one vote for every 10 Senior Members 2009_start or part thereof, 2009_finishup to a maximum of 12 votes per club.
27. Individual members may group to form a voting bloc or blocs.2003_start Any such voting bloc must consist of at least ten ICU Individual Members.2003_finish One of their number shall be nominated as a Delegate or Delegates in accordance with the procedures as contained herein and shall cast votes in accordance with the preceding Article.
28. Each incumbent member of the Board shall be entitled to cast one vote at a Delegate Meeting and each member of the Board shall be recognised as a Delegate.
Its a lot easier to let your vote cards do the talking, rather than appealing to peoples sense of logic. (it must be said that the last AGM wasn't acrimonious as people would expect, it was productive, open and forward looking. I hope the next one can cling on to some of that positivity, but I doubt it will. Its something to aim for in the future.)
- Attachments
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- ICU Memo & Articles_June 2009.pdf
- Irish Canoe Union Memo & Articles
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